You see grēne where I see grœg

Your responses to yesterday’s piece – in which I introduced KC’s fabulous Chingly Yorlin – really interested me.

A woman standing in front of a teal background, wearing an olive green cardigan over a bright orange dress.
Chingly Yorlin

In both the Ravelry group and newsletter comments, many of you suggested that you do not see Chingly as I do – as a greenish-grey – but as very definitely green.

Close-up of a person wearing a knitted green sweater with intricate patterns and white buttons against a solid turquoise background.

Others described Chingly as sludgy, brown, or (rather memorably) as the colour of lichen on old gravestones (thank you, Eleanor). While few of you see Chingly as a the mercurial greenish-grey this shade appears to me, many of you agreed that this colour represented something of a challenge, because it seemed rather unusual. The whole discussion reminded me of an evocative Matthew Herbert track, which Tom and I enjoyed in the early ’00s because of its articulation of a particular colour-perception issue over which we’d often disagree: “you see green where I see grey”

still sounding good 25 years on . . .

Whether we see / name a colour as “green” or “grey” can depend on many factors: the physical mechanics of perception, our cultural heritage, our linguistic positioning, and (it is now increasingly clear) our age.

A frosty landscape featuring a tall tree surrounded by icy foliage and mist, creating a serene winter atmosphere.

I thought a lot about how we see and describe grey when Felix and I were developing Colour At Work, and since writing the essay which is included in that book (“Grey Area”), I’ve continued to do so.

A foggy landscape featuring a shoreline with calm water in the foreground and a dense, leafless forest in the background.

Grey is just one of those colours which, throughout history, has accrued an extraordinary amount of cultural baggage (a lot of it very negative) and which remains a concept over which humans routinely disagree. Is that shade blue or grey? Grey or green? Where does grey stop and green begin?

Two black dogs standing at the water's edge on a beach with turquoise waves and a cloudy sky in the background.

As grey is one of those shades which, for many of us it seems, perpetually hovers in an area of chromatic indeterminacy, you may be interested to know that, in some languages, it is among the first colours to be named.

A turbulent ocean wave crashing in a misty, foggy atmosphere.

In Old English, grœg (grey, grey-ish) is a basic colour term (or BCT) that appears in the language at an earlier date than blue (hœwen) and which is used in a wide variety of contexts in reference to everything from wolves and stones to stormy seas.*

A wide view of ocean waves rolling in with foamy crests and wind-blown spray, set against a muted sky.

Gren (grēne) is a BCT that precedes blue in the Old English language too: in reference to freshness or newness, to un-ripe or uncooked things, to glassy gemstones and to metals with a colourful patina, such as copper or brass. Grēne also frequently appears in Old English place names in association with landmarks, property boundaries, and objects in the natural world, such as paths, hills, and trees.

A hiker wearing a blue jacket and orange pants walks along a grassy path with a view of a body of water and green hills in the background.

While grēne and grœg are both Old English BCTs, then, grey is also associated with a surprising number of non-basic, or secondary terms in this language such as hasu (a brown-ish grey which is used in reference to the plumage of many birds) and fealu (a pale, yellow-ish or red-ish-grey).

A tranquil scene featuring a foggy lake at dawn, with reflections of trees on the water's surface and a solitary wooden structure on the lake.

Grey and green (grár and grœn) are BCTs in Old Norse-Icelandic too, with grár possessing, as Kirsten Wolf puts it, “stability of reference across Old Norse-Icelandic texts spanning several centuries and across various types of vocabulary”

A solitary tree stands on a foggy hillside with a distant mountain peak partially obscured by mist.

By the time of the very earliest literary documents in Old Norse-Icelandic, grár possesses, in Wolf’s words “a well-established achromatic meaning (without hue).” Her work shows how the development and consolidation of grar as one of the earliest Old Norse-Icelandic BCTs historically preceded that of grœnn (green).*

Mist rising over a tranquil lake surrounded by trees and distant houses during sunrise.

Fascinatingly, while grey is one of the earliest and well-documented colour terms in these northern languages, it is emphatically not so in those of the European south or east: in Latin, Greek, or Old East Slavik (Old Russian) grey is very low down in the list of early-documented shades.

My own linguistic parameters remain rather narrowly European, and I unfortunately know nothing about the development or consolidation of grey / green BCTs in Mandarin or Japanese, Urdu or Punjabi (perhaps speakers of these languages can enlighten us?). But I often find myself wondering just how far the long linguistic / cultural heritage of those of us who speak the modern European languages which arose out of Old English and Icelandic, Latin and Greek, affects the very particular ways in which we now see, describe, and understand rather blurry colour concepts such as “grey” and “green”.

Blurred silhouette of tall trees against a light background, creating an abstract effect.

Our blurry grey / green boundaries are further complicated by our physiology: some of us see colours very differently due to colour blindness (colour vision deficiency, CVD), an inherited genetic condition affecting one or more of the three types of colour-perceiving cone cells in the retina. New research into Aphantasia is also beginning to reveal the key role colour plays in the vividness (or otherwise) of our internal mental imagery. We all see (or don’t see) colour very differently!

Close-up of delicate white flowers on slender green stems against a soft background.

Recent research is also shedding light on a phenomenon with which many of us may already be personally or anecdotally aware: that our perception of colour can alter, quite dramatically, as we age. The lenses in our eyes are affected by the progressive absorption of UV light over our lifetimes, becoming dimmer and more yellow as we age (a protective mechanism that preserves the retina). The sensitivity of the photoreceptors in the eyes of older adults are also affected, and in adults above the age of 70, the ability to perceive distinctions on the blue-violet end of the spectrum as well as the tonal distinctions between different types of pastels is progressively reduced. As one gardening book I recently read describes this phenomena, as we age, everything simply starts to look more green.

A watercolor abstract composition in shades of green with hints of yellow and dark blue, set against a light beige background.
exploratory colour blot by chromatic pioneer, Mary Gartside

Tom recently painted our front and back doors in a colour which Farrow & Ball describe as “French Grey” but which, to my eye, is most definitely green in hue.

A young girl wearing a large straw hat and a green dress stands against a textured stone wall, with her arms crossed beneath a light-colored cardigan.

A woman in a green dress and wide-brimmed straw hat stands next to a pale green door adorned with a floral wreath, beside a stone wall. She holds a plant pot with colorful flowers, while a wooden ladder leans against the wall.
green or grey?

What do you think? Do I see green where you see grey? Or grey when you see green? I find the differences and specifics of colour perception really fascinating. These issues have so much to say, I think, about our shared linguistic and cultural inheritance as well as our individual experiences of simply being human. We should celebrate those experiences, and those differences! Hurrah for grey, green, and the many indeterminate shades of in-between!

Close-up of a person wearing a textured, light-colored knitted garment with a short sleeve and wooden bead necklace.
Chingly: grey, green, or something inbetween?

*My discussion of of grey and green in Old English and Old Norse-Icelandic draws heavily on Carole Biggham and Kirsten Wolf’s excellent A Cultural History of Colour in the Medieval Age, volume 2 in Bloomsbury’s Cultural History of Colour series (2021; 2024)

Read more about history of colour in Colour at Work

Many of the beautiful green-grey photographs in this post are taken from Tom’s Ootlier projects Light Waves and Range

Join the colourful discussion in the KDD Ravelry Group!


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Comments

57 responses to “You see grēne where I see grœg”

  1. Sharon Avatar

    Chingly is definitely a pale brown for me, and the door is as definitely grey, not green. They’re both lovely and I see how things coordinate when Chingly is used alongside another hue.

    Were we really surveying ourselves, we should’ve added map pins for known regional ancestry, where feasible. :) None of mine is UK/Ireland based, nor coastal continental Celt, though the discussions of “glas” and “gorm” are familiar from long-ago undergraduate lectures.

  2. Michele Derrien Avatar
    Michele Derrien

    I enjoyed reading your text about the different perceptions of colours namely blues, greens and greys. I am from Brittany and we do have two words for artificial colours : glas or glaz meaning blue
    And gwer for green .But when it comes to mentioning natural colours( plants clouds,or the sea glas comes up immediately.
    We’re Celtic people too 😉
    Cheers
    Michèle

  3. sharonpearse Avatar
    sharonpearse

    HI Kate,

    totally fascinating article, as ever. I remember discussions Mum & I used to have about what colour something was, eg: “The Gold curtains”, “But, Mum, they’re Orange!” (& to my eyes they were.)

    However the Chingly Yorlin is definitely light brown(ish)

    As for northern European languages first ’naming’ grey – after this week are we surprised? For that matter, many weeks, even months, in the UK can be best described as ‘grey’ with the weather. Although when we were travelling in early May, the word was definitely ‘Green’. Bright Spring Green – in all its hues. Wonderful!

    Oh, with you on the ‘green’ door paint too.

    & many thanks to Tom for the amazingly atmospheric photos.

    Sharon

    >

  4. anjastrassburger Avatar
    anjastrassburger

    Very interesting article! Thank you!

    With compliments,

    Anja Strassburger

  5. Your door definitely looks green to me. Like a very pale celadon. I very much enjoyed your color discussion.

  6. Alice Hoyle Avatar
    Alice Hoyle

    What an interesting discussion. I was fascinated by all the nature pictures you included, showing various types of green/grey examples. To chime in on the door colour discussion: I see the door as painted a shade of grey.

  7. Chiming in a little late, and haven’t read all of the responses. Maybe someone’s already said this… although I think your door does look slightly green, it may be due to being surrounded by brownish gray stone and a warmish ivory mortar. If it were surrounded by another color – a reddish pale pink, it’s opposite on the color wheel or isolated a warmer gray, it might look less green. As all knitters of colorwork know, putting colors together changes our eyes perceive them.

  8. Jen Hohenboken Avatar
    Jen Hohenboken

    That door is a stunning soft green/grey. Mostly green to me. Also, the photo of the dogs is stunning.

  9. Linda Hull Avatar
    Linda Hull

    Your posts on how we see colours are very interesting. By coincidence, I am reading a book entitled “True Color” by Kory Stamper sub-titled “The Strange and Spectacular Quest to Define Color — from Azure to Zinc Pink”. The inside cover reads: A kaleidoscopic journey through the secret history of hues — and the story of the obsessive genius behind the definitions of colours we use today…
    As a lexicographer for nearly thirty years at Merriam-Webster (and others) she was drawn into the “whimsical colour definitions” and wrote this amazing romp through the world of naming colours. I am waiting for cataract surgery and can hardly wait to see colours clearly once again. Best, Linda Hull

    1. all the best for the surgery, Linda

  10. I see (pun not intended!) my eyes may differ from others – I see your door as a light grey, although there is a very small drop of green in there, if I look closely.
    At high school we had compulsory embroidery lessons (in the 70s) and our dear old teacher taught us to see all the differing colours that went into one. It took a while for my 13 year-old self to know what she was talking about, but I’m grateful now for the lesson.

  11. gracefullycollective25ea52bfbc Avatar
    gracefullycollective25ea52bfbc

    I\’m with Eleanor………..Lichen! I am always in trouble saying a fleece is black and my \’friends\’ say, Oh no, it is dark brown. I gave up 🙂

    Thistle be a beautiful day!
    While there is tea there is hope!

  12. Christine Wills Avatar
    Christine Wills

    Hi Kate
    Gaelic has its own experience of colour and ways of describing it.
    Uanie is a yellowish green.
    Gorm is blue, or a dark blue, but becomes green when attached to grass.
    Glas is grey, but is green when applied to land. (Glasgow is often said to mean “the dear green place”, but I don’t know if the Gaelic scholars agree.)
    Best wishes
    Christine

  13. Kimberly Thimmig Avatar
    Kimberly Thimmig

    If the definition of grey (gray?) is gradations of the mixture of white and black, which we think of as basic color-mixing theory, along a continuum from white-just-barely-grey, all the way to very dark-almost-black grey – the culprit is, to me, as someone who has dabbled with dyeing fibers/cloth, how did the color ‘black’ come to be, in the medium you are mixing. Take all the black clothes out of your closet in daylight and compare them. Dye houses develop “black” dye recipes from mixing other saturated colors until it looks black. The dye recipe for wool is different from cotton, or for linen, or for synthetics. Thus, to me, the cast of black – whether greenish, purplish, or brownish – is a result of how the black dye originated. Some dyes for fiber artists are correctly labeled as black with green cast, or black with purple cast, etc.
    My perception of grey – a color that dominates my closet – is the dufference between the blue/green cool type, and the taupe-leaning pieces. Pick a piece of clothing – if its cool, coordinate accordingly, and if its a neutral/warmer taupe, I reach for the fewer pieces I have in that range. I absolutely see your color in question as leaning to the warmer taupe side – I’d wear that with olive or coral, or navy, which goes with everything!! And the door, its most definitely green, but I see it as a cool, clean green/grey – a beautiful color!!

  14. I’ve ordered the kit just to check :)

    1. But of course! :-)

  15. I see the sweater color as a pale brown but not “beige,” remembering that beige is not really “beige”, the color of mediocrity. There are very pale browns with slight pink undertones, or grey undertones, creamy vanilla or green. But we call them as a lump: beige. If someone has to squint to see the subtleties in the colorway then their eyes will pick up the dominant thread and miss the dynamism of the undertones. Does this make sense? And when I see your door I see a very pale green tilting to a white.

  16. Jane Piller-Wilson Avatar
    Jane Piller-Wilson

    Thank you for this essay. The intersection of color perception and language became clear early in my marriage nearly 40 years ago when my husband told me to meet him at the yellow house on such-and-such a block in San Francisco. There was no yellow house. Nothing even close. Eventually, I drove home. We returned to the block one day so I could understand what I’d missed, which was that my dear husband couldn’t tell the difference between yellow and a distinctly solid brown.
    On the other hand, as a volunteer in my 9 year old son’s class, I stapled together 20 “Me” packets noting that each student had written single words to describe their eye and hair color. Always the outlier, my son wrote that his eyes were “greenish grayish blue” and his hair “the color of a young buck.” We all have a different response to color.

  17. Pat Bullen Avatar
    Pat Bullen

    I learned early on that grey was created by adding white to black. When I became a dyer, I discovered that there are red blacks, blue blacks, and green blacks. There is no true black (although I have at least 3 jars of “true black”). One actually does come close and it is great when lightly sprinkled on silk – you get tiny dots of reddish, blue, and yellow specs. Using less does not guarantee a shade of grey. The actual gray dyes are about as unpredictable as the black dyes. I agree, your door is definitely a pale green.

  18. Janet Thom Avatar
    Janet Thom

    A fascinating read….especially on a very definitely groeg day!
    Perhaps we should bring these words back into use. How many words do the Inuit have for snow ❄️ 🤔???

  19. Related, imagine my surprise when a living room wall I thought was coral was, post cataract surgery, definitely pink.
    Also, naming greatly effects what people believe they see. But for those few free thinkers…!

  20. Megan M Avatar
    Megan M

    Thank you so much for this – this was just the thing I needed for a lunch time break from work read!

  21. I love all your posts, but this one especially. Color, perception, and history are a marvelous blend.

  22. christinefrostell Avatar
    christinefrostell

    A very lovely pale green!

  23. Julie Avatar

    When looking at colour on-line, another factor is quality/settings of the screen the image is being displayed on…and why it’s so hard to buy yarn on-line and be confident on the shade that will arrive…

  24. Louise Avatar

    I loved this history and analysis of this color—thank you so much for sharing your knowledge from this longtime knitter and English lecturer!

  25. Christiane Price Avatar
    Christiane Price

    The doors are definitely Green.

    Love the article and the photos. Thank you.

    The yarn looks brown/grey in the cardigan but when the lighter yarn is added it looks green.

  26. Margery Williams Avatar
    Margery Williams

    I find my perception depends a lot on the light. I see chingly as a shade of brown in most photos yet greenish grey in one. It doesn’t really matter to me as I like the colour and may yet use the yarn to knit a jumper/cardigan

  27. I\’m a painter, and I see the greens and the grays and the blue-greens and everything in between. Something my mom and I noticed (she is also an artist), is that as she aged, her color sense changed. She could no longer see some colors with the undertones that they had. One example was a set of blue-gray, clearly clearly BLUE gray, curtains in her bedroom. She swore up and down that they were a very neutral if a little cool gray, but not blue at all. She painted the room pink and it went together well, but she\’d always get mad when anyone said the curtains were blue.

    Three years ago, she had cataract surgery to remove films from her lens. When she healed up, she called me and apologized — apparently everything she had been arguing with me about was crystal clear after the surgery. It was a good lesson for us both!

    Thank you for writing, and for your thoughtfulness with everything you do, Kate. It is massively inspiring to me as someone else in this industry trying to make her own way.

    Hannah

  28. Chris Tucker Avatar
    Chris Tucker

    Hi Kate
    Your Chingly Yorlin definately looks brown to me, but in the Weaver B the Chingly looks green, illustrating neatly how the percieved colour of yarn changes according to what its paired with. Its all fascinating stuff.
    All the best
    Chris

  29. In Swabian German there is s funny word for this indefinable colour grey (german grau): ‘Munkelesgrau’ (often also spelled ‘Muggelesgrau’, ‘Mongeles’ or ‘Maugelesbraun’) refers to a dirty, washed-out, dull or dark shade. It is not an exact RAL colour, but is colloquially often used to describe a mixture of grey and brown or a dark, indefinable grey. The term is derived from the word ‘Maugel’, which in the Swabian and Alemannic linguistic areas means ‘dusk’ or ‘gloomy’. Its linguistic origin is closely related to Swiss German, where, as darkness falls, one says ‘es mauggelet’ (it is getting dark).
    (Sorce: Backnanger Kreiszeitung)
    I think elegance comes with the shades in between, colours just with a touch of grey.

    1. Thank you for this fascinating information, Ulla! I’m now going to say “es mauggelet” whenever I notice the gathering dusk.

  30. Dear Kate,
    Well I just read this newsletter on my 11 year old windows laptop as well as on my Samsung S10 mobile screen.
    Laptop: the yarn is grey; on my mobile it’s a tweeded greenish-grey
    Laptop: your garage is off-white; on my mobile it’s an grey-ish off white
    So, THERE you have another factor how a colour turns out ;-))))
    Take care!
    Margot

  31. My first encounter with an in-between green grey shade like this was 15 years ago when my ambitious husband ordered himself two kits to make fair isle Christmas for himself and his dad (adorably) in antique Christmas colours from J&S. Sadly, 6 inches into the first sweater, his work got attacked by moths. He still has the yarn and won’t let me finish one of the sweaters for him. Anyway, the green in that sweater on its own looks very grey brown. But in the context of a yellowed parchment background colour and a deep burgundy, it looks like Christmas green. That was my first lesson on how context dependent colour perception is.

  32. Susan Avatar

    Had no idea others would not see green. Interesting thought it ìs certainly not grass green. Lovely article.

  33. Beth Durham Avatar
    Beth Durham

    My bedroom is painted “Richmond Gray.” The chip looked gray to me. On the wall, it was definitely green at first. Until afternoon, when a different light hit it. Then it was gray! I enjoy watching how the color changes throughout the day, and with the weather. (But it’s never brown.) Totally fun! Thanks for a really interesting discussion.

  34. Hannah Avatar

    I, as you Kate, love grey in all its subtle permutations so fully got the green grey description. However, I appreciate all the other responses that have elicited such a brilliant and fascinating reply from you :-)

  35. Anna-Maria Avatar
    Anna-Maria

    I just loved all the images…a picture is worth a thousand words!

  36. Liza Green Avatar
    Liza Green

    I see the cardi as nearer to brown than green or grey and the door pale green, but doesn’t it depend on what colour is put next to any other colour, that changes things considerably. Cataract surgery a few years ago was like lifting a veil for me, suddenly white had a whole new meaning!

  37. Madeleine Avatar
    Madeleine

    Beautiful photos of many variations of grey that Tom has captured. When I saw yesterday’s post, I admired your door color and thought it a pale greyish green; then, I saw your lovely sweater as a soft natural-sheep brown. Different eyes, different monitors.

  38. I loved this discussion, Kate. I can’t let this go without commenting on the unbelievably gorgeous photography. Tom is so talented and his contributions to this blog are part of what makes it so pleasing to read.

  39. Elisabeth Avatar
    Elisabeth

    Very interesting discussion. I had no idea that color perception changes with age. I see the door as a very pale green and the cardigan as a somewhat dark beige or light brown.

  40. Judith Grant Avatar
    Judith Grant

    A frustrating aspect of color perception differences is associated with ordering yarn online. What I perceive on the screen may differ significantly from what arrives in the post. Secondly, how colors work together calls for the need to swatch before jumping into a project.
    Thanks for the discussion.

  41. nelliejean Avatar
    nelliejean

    Your door absolutely looks pale green to me, and I see the cardigan as an olive-y brownish-green.

  42. Dina Turcotte Avatar
    Dina Turcotte

    Interestingly the yellow of aging is negated after cataract surgery. People are surprised at the new brightness and blue tint to colours. Often a surprise at prior colour choices.

  43. C Butler Avatar
    C Butler

    Absolutely fascinating. Thank you. 💕🧶🇨🇦

  44. Josephine Shields Avatar
    Josephine Shields

    Chingly. Grey. Green. No worry to me. I could never wear the color. Too earthy, muddy fot my bright silver hair.

  45. wrighax Avatar
    wrighax

    What a wonderful piece to wake up to with my morning coffee! Thank you for this gift. PS: my 74 year old eyes see lots more beige/brown in Chingly …

  46. Barbara Avatar
    Barbara

    I definitely see the door as green, but Chingly leans more brown than green to me.

  47. Barbara Adamson Avatar
    Barbara Adamson

    I showed my husband the cardigan worn with the orange dress and asked him what colour it was. Green, he was emphatic. What?! It’s obviously brown…Will we reach out golden anniversary in September? We are clearly absolutely incompatible 😁 I knew about these perception things about, thanks for going deep, and fit the excellent etymology…love it!

  48. Colour perception is fascinating – and we can never know exactly what a precise colour looks like seen through someone else’s eyes, can we?

    I love and use many colours on the blue-green spectrum, and where I see a blue-ish shade of teal, someone else sees green.

    Not to mention that it’s really hard to photograph these colours and get a good rendition (I’m far less skilled than Tom) – and then the photos are viewed through a screen that changes the rendition again.

  49. Angie Avatar

    In the sixties when I was in couture clothing the colour was called Greige a cross between beige and grey Elephants breath or Mouse.

  50. Martha Steele Avatar
    Martha Steele

    I never liked the grays when young or even as recent as the last fiveyears. It’s been in the last two years that I’ve begun to appreciate grays. In painting houses, gray was fashionable for a long time, just now beginning to lose its dominance. Still, gray is popular in painting house interiors. Two years ago, I painted the living room a color that wasn’t described by its name (to my knowledge). It was called Tanglewood, and to me it looked like a green with a hint of drab to it. Well, turns out the color is in the gray section of the color lookbook. So it seems it’s true with me that I see more green as I age. I never would have known this if not for reading the email essay. Tanglewood has been discontinued as a color choice, but the use of a spectrophotometer makes it possible to have the color replicated. I truly love the color. I would have described Tanglewood as a drab weird green. Learning it was considered gray astonished me. Now I understand the whys of this. And as I began, I never liked what I considered to be non-colors, the drab, vague area of the spectrum. I guess color ages like a fine wine. I now love the colors of gray. Very soothing, they add a middle ground color to the more commonly used colors. And I appreciate their subtlety. I have a lot of modern art on one wall, and one would think a gray or drab green would be a disaster when trying to set off the bold colors in the works. But to the contrary, it works well with them. Often, white is used to present bold colors. But Tanglewood works. Who would have thought!

    It has occurred to me that some may know Tanglewood as a color of wood, I don’t know. All I know is I thought the word Tanglewood was an arbitrary, strange choice of descriptive color. Ha! As to the rest of the essay, I fit the European background explanation, too.

  51. Vivienne Hatton Avatar
    Vivienne Hatton

    Very interesting on perception of colours.
    In some sun Saharan Bantu languages there are very few colour names, so green would be the word for raw, red from the word for ripe etc

    1. Karen Maclean Avatar
      Karen Maclean

      Lovely interesting article, definitely food for thought. I am with ealanor with the light sludgey brown (I am 66). Although the door at the end is a more pale green than grey!

  52. Stella Collard Avatar
    Stella Collard

    Very interesting discussion. My English mother made the same observation about different colour differential of blue and green for Basque or high mountain Spanish, who didn’t seem to differentiate between the two colours.

  53. Valerie Torode Avatar
    Valerie Torode

    I see the latest cardigan colour as mushroom. If someone suits warm colours, I think it’s perfect.

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